Brand Power: The Role of Corporate America in Advancing Social Issues

Brand Power: The Role of Corporate America in Advancing Social Issues



all right well how's everybody doing yeah yeah it's pretty good right lots of good energy lots of good ideas hopefully those panels are closing down are we ready to get going we're gonna get going okay so twenty thirty is around the corner that's just 11 years from now and by then it's projected that our global population will grow to eight point six billion people that's an additional 1 billion people in the next 11 years or the equivalent of quadrupling the size of the United States so as we prepare for the culmination of this event let's commit to remembering the vast number of people on this planet who are depending upon the actions of everyone in this room to enjoy a safe and sustainable future you know this conference has felt different to me somehow maybe it's the fact that you've shared your personal stories or maybe it's a sense of urgency or maybe it's both but I really believe that we felt we've built a new sense of momentum so when you leave here today I encourage you as Hank oving said in the morning plenary to put your money where your heart is when I leave here I'm going home to celebrate my daughter's 11th birthday tomorrow and honestly it seems like just yesterday that she was born 11 years is not very much time and it will go by very very quickly trust me we have a lot of work to do to get us there and I'm confident that we will get there so with that I want to thank you also much for your level of engagement with us over the last few days as many of us have said over time it takes a village and this is an awesome village to be a part of and so now for our final plenary on the stage we will have leaders from companies that are iconic there are companies that all of us know and love in many ways they'll engage in a conversation about how they and others can use their brand power to affect behavioral change to create social movements and to maintain a strong bottom line I'd like now to introduce and welcome our closing panel to the stage and to moderate this session is Ceres own vice president of government relations and Kelly [Applause] that introduction done and it's so great to see all of you here a special warm welcome to members of the San Francisco community who are joining us for this important conversation about what happens when a brand takes a stand what happens to their customers how do their investors feel how does the CEO sleep at night we're going to talk about all the social issues that have emerged over this past year and we're going to talk policy and politics so hold on to your seats remembering that series is a bipartisan organization we're actually post-partisan which is why I was able to find a jacket that is red blue and purple that's why I'm wearing that today so let me start out by introducing our incredible panelists and then we'll get right at it okay so let me start with you Alex Alex Thompson is vice president of brand stewardship and impact for REI he's tasked with building long-term brand equity for the nation's largest consumer cooperative through communications public policy government affairs sustainability and philanthropy alex helps REI to lead with its values his team's work involves engaging 12,000 employees in 154 stores working closely with 300 nonprofits advancing sustainable business practices and inspiring 17 million REI members to pursue and enjoy life outdoors through initiatives including hashtag opt outside before joining REI alec specialized in international communications and marketing in the for-profit not-for-profit and public sectors he served for more than a decade at Elliman in various roles in on three continents and he serves on the board of the Washington Environmental Council welcome to you Alex and next to alex is Kelly McGinnis as chief communications officer at Levi Strauss & Company Keli McGinness is responsible for managing the global corporate affairs function at the 160 year-old apparel company in this capacity she oversees corporate media relations executive internal and stakeholder communications government affairs social responsibility and community affairs kelly reports to CEO trip berg kelly is a two-time silver anvil Award recipient look it up that means she knows her when it comes to PR she holds a master's degree in public administration from the University of Washington and a bachelors from Miami University in Oxford Ohio and a warm welcome to you Kelly and finally to my immediate left is John Carter John Carter is a PhD he's a research assistant professor at George Mason University's Center for climate change communication where he conducts research on science environmental and risk communication his work focuses on how people respond to public engagement by scientists how to effectively communicate about the public health implications of climate change and air pollution and how civic organizations can most effectively recruit organize and mobilize citizens especially political conservatives to demand action on climate change John also works on the climate change in the American mind project a series of national public opinion surveys carried out in partnership with the Yale program on climate change communication to investigate and track public attitudes towards climate change and support for climate policies in the u.s. John a welcome to you thank you all right so let's just have we're just gonna look at a few examples to kick us off and I know all of these will be familiar to you just to kick off our conversation the first one is from Levi's and I'm excited about Kelly talking about their latest campaign to encourage voting and of course Alex will be talking about many of the outdoor campaigns this one is about the diversity of the outdoor community they've had wonderful campaigns on public lands and opt out opt outside what you're going to hear more about this one is a little less subtle from Patagonia some of you recall when the administration was seeking to eliminate public lands and so this was the campaign and I'm sure it is familiar to all of you this one the best a man can get Gillette I hope you'll look at this and give it a like personally but we'll talk about whether or not this went over well and and what were the elements of that as we look at authenticity of one's message this you may remember was in the Superbowl how we would have longed five years ago to have a commercial in the Super Bowl that actually promoted and attached it to beer what could be better and this one is familiar to all of you thanks to all of you for wearing the brand by the way throughout this whole conference we are still in this was one of the easiest campaigns we ever launched and we'll talk about that why was it so reflexive and so easy that hundreds of companies immediately jumped on – we are still in when we co-founded this campaign with our good friends at World Wildlife Fund this is from Mars some of you have seen fans of wind the the friendly fat mmm peanut and the chocolate mmm telling you about wind what could be better what could be more friendly Mars as you know is a very conservative company our good friend Brad 500 lifetime Republican was the IPO fellow who had the idea of bicep he's at Mars worth looking at their campaign and this one of course needs no explanation you're familiar very familiar with colin kaepernick ads by our friends at Nike so it just gives you a flavor of what's out there and what we've seen just over this past year Alex I want to start with you if I could and I'm just interested in given your 17 million members and I know that they span the political spectrum just talk to us a little bit about re eyes positioning when you decide to weigh in and how what your overall philosophy is about taking a stand I'm more than happy to do that be I think it's interesting when you're a room like this people are like sitting there and people like Kelly and me and we're you know involved in these choices and what they don't know is we just shut ourselves in a dark room we have a special set of dice like now we know well I guess we're about done I think that's kind of what some of our employees think from time to time is like is there fara you know rigor and I can get into the process by which that happens but of course with an organization like REI I think it's a bit easier than it can be for other organizations because the central premise that life outside the broadest possible concept that applies both to individuals and a planetary level is a thing that essentially we exist for so the decision-making criteria for us always ladders to the same question and it is boiled down in its simplest form to is this either going to halt what we describe as a long march indoors that human beings have been on for about the last 10,000 years or is it not and the statistic that keeps me coming back to these questions of what can an organization do is somewhere around the year 2000 the majority of human being started living the majority of their lives inside but by now in the US the average American spends approximately 70 years indoors 7-0 based on average life expectancy that of course includes sleep but it's about 95 percent of the time we spend that data in fact came from research that looks at people's exposure to particulates yeah but the central question is really kind of what we asked ourselves is this going to Holt this very frightening trend okay I want to read for the audience something you have a United outside manifesto and I'm quoting but I'm paraphrasing it here we hold these truths to be self-evident that all people are equal outside that there was mirth in mud catharsis and rain that the thirst for nature knows no party line men Teddy Roosevelt and Rachel Carson would love that there's a line later in that piece that's like something something like politicians sling mud I don't know who wrote that like I like that but the I saw that yeah so that that was a campaign called United outside 2016 we opened a flagship store in DC under the banner left side right side United outside we held a hundred events over a hundred days bringing people together the supposition was that staffers on the hill needed a bit of a break so we threw outdoor parties games and beer stand up paddleboards and weird things like that and made them do stuff together but they loved it and the principal for rei that the outdoors is a is a place that uniquely brings people together underpins all of our advocacy efforts so we pretty vocal on any number of topics and we are very comfortable being vocal on issues without being party political and it's not because we're scared of the backlash it is that in the bylaws of the coop we're a cooperative owned by our members we are not allowed to endorse one or other party we are allowed to and encouraged to in fact measured by the degree to which we drive a net positive change for society and that's just part of the governance structure of the coop sure talk a little more about your public lands campaign and it resulted in a real legislative success in fact a bipartisan success and I'm not sure our audience knows about yeah there are two pieces to that I'll mention so the first is you know it's interesting you show the Patagonia campaign I mean we were working hand-in-hand with 500 companies spanning large organizations like REI the North Face Patagonia and others and much smaller organizations that do spanning the political spectrum and this was two or three years ago now and it was the defense of the national monuments this was one example of how we saw the entire outdoor industry mobilize in a way that they hadn't before and articulating a single view of the right essentially of Americans to Rome in our public lands now that's two three years ago most recently and only in the last couple of months a huge piece of legislation has been passed 600 pages of legislation that was brought forward by Maria Cantwell of Washington State and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and this the bill passed through both houses with incredible by bipartisan support and you know as the policy director of Ceres more about the you know contents of that than I do but you can think about permanent reauthorization of the Land and Water Conservation Fund and a great deal of much more localized changes this is a big example that progress can be made when businesses just get out of their own way and say listen we need this let's work together and it needn't be a mudslinging match on the journey to that so it's pretty pretty exciting development really exciting and Congrats now I have to ask you about some things a little more controversial proposition 16 31 in Washington I think our audience knows that that was the carbon tax proposition it was referred to earlier by a fawn shark with the Quinault nation this was a big deal to stand up as a company for a carbon tax in Washington State talk about that process what that was like for you and and how your members reacted I'll leave the dice bit behind but the it was a bit of a throw of the dice that one seriously because I mean 1631 was a ballot initiative we didn't receive much pushback from our members as a result of our advocacy that either means that people don't read voter pamphlets because our logo was on it or that they generally speaking members were supportive of our advocacy there but but I'll say a few words on that it was a it was a really depressing defeat at the time but just in the last two weeks Washington State has passed a bill it's signed into law now that we are on the path to 100% clean energy by 2045 as many of people in the room now I here will know and my view is that that is a direct result of the momentum that was built by the coalition that was focused on 1631 so I'm feeling buoyed by the momentum that's there I'm also pretty amazed by the degree of support that was that 1631 attracted I did speak to the campaign director kind of a couple couple hours ago just to sort of check what information we have that's new and I would share a couple things about 1631 you know the first is two-thirds of the people who voted YES were under the age of 30 based on exit polling 50% of women supported but the vast majority of votes that were against were from households with a median income of somewhere between 25 and $75,000 so the reality is that the tax number and the messaging problem that we faced particularly for lower income households was I believe probably a strategic error in that in the messaging choice that we that we adopted okay do you have any other thoughts about why it lasts I mean listen thirty million dollars of you know money in advertising coming from the oil and gas sector they basically outspent the campaign three to one so in a in a straight-out fight of you know of messaging there's no way you're going to beat that so I think we have to look much more much more deliberately the techniques we use if we're going to go at the grassroots of ballot initiatives I do believe that I do believe that the power of the coalition that was that was that was pulled together it's something that if anybody here was supportive thank you very much it's something that we can all be incredibly proud of and you have to see this in the context of you know generation it's not you know quarterly earnings or a year or a year of political action yeah absolutely well thank you for that and I'm thrilled Congrats I'm not losing any any members I'm aware of so Kelly let's turn to you and can you talk a little bit about Levi's overall philosophy and values and how you approach I mean you have an unbelievable history and by the way thank you for being a founding member of the series bicep network you've been an incredible advocate on LGBT and AIDS on child labor so many issues talk to us about your philosophy how you take positions and how that lines up with your values and then if you would walk us through a little bit about your new campaign around voting yeah so I think that this work of advocacy and corporate activism is very natural to us and it's something that we've done for a very very long time so we can connect a dot all the way back to our founder Levi Strauss but even decade after decade after decade we feel incredibly proud of our leaders willingness to step up one of our core values is courage and really making been willing to step up and oftentimes what we find is that we've spoken up on issues before they have become they in the long run they end up being on the right side of the history of history but we've opened the door I made it okay for other companies to follow us and that's everything from being the first on the amicus brief for gaming courage to the work that we did on the terms of engagement 25 years I mean there's example after example after example of where we've gone first and others have followed and so we've always been very core on equality you mentioned this and issues around communities that may be discriminated against and around sustainability and environmental change in the last couple of years though it's been really apparent that there were other places that it made sense for us to speak up and when we think about those you had asked Alex about what's the criteria or the process for making those choices and we have a very detailed list of questions that we asked ourselves and that we make ourselves go through the discipline of asking those questions of what's the implications for our business but the real core questions and the ones that we stopped on and spend time on is whether or not it's consistent with our values is it is there pieces of the puzzle that just don't feel right to us and therefore and can we make a difference we have something unique that we can offer to the conversation that's going to move it forward and in the last couple of years it's felt like our portfolio needed to expand that there were issues that particularly one of the pieces is we worry about being consistent with our values being authentic to our actions and that we're willing to really think about it holistically and last and foremost almost all of the big issues that we've taken have first generated with our employees saying what are you gonna do about this and that has been more and more so in the past couple of years and in fact when I watched sort of the stories of employee activism that we're seeing at a lot of the tech companies and other things it's actually been a permission for us it's been the place that's been us North Star on where should we put energy and time and so we stepped up on gun violence prevention and we really were the first company that didn't really have a stake in that business to weigh in on it and did it in a very broad scale way and have been incredibly proud that that's one of the examples where other companies have followed since then and we're starting to see more not a lot it's it's a hard issue to weigh in on but we're starting to see more companies weigh in on that – we did it on immigration and some of the discriminatory strategy policies that we saw coming forward and really weighing in and again that's an issue where we don't have a specific business interest and the way that some of the other parts of the coalition did but it felt like the right thing to do and it felt like a continuation of a conversation and advocacy that we've been doing on behalf of communities for a long time and similarly voting has been everything kind of leads to voting is what we really learn and the more that our employees say how can I get involved in what can I do the answer comes again and again and again to make sure that your voice is heard and that is both consistent with what our brand purpose is around authentic self expression it's consistent with us using our the bully pulpit of the CEOs office to say how can you have an influence at the end of the day the thing that we can answer the question and absolutely it's bipartisan is we can make sure that people's voices are heard through voting and so you asked about the campaign what really happened is it was one of those beautiful moments that happen in companies and I said this to Alex beforehand if we had done it as a top-down initiative it wouldn't have gotten nearly the traction that I got but first and foremost we partnered with you talking about Patagonia Patagonian Rose did an op-ed where she encouraged companies to really reflect on the fact that Election Day is not a holiday and that many employees don't have the opportunity to vote and when we saw that and they sort of raised their hand and said we're thinking about how do we make this bigger we were very quick to step in and to galvanize and ultimately we got more than 400 companies to commit to the fact that they would make sure that their employees would have time to vote and one of the things that we learned in that process because there were we really focused on the retail industry in particular and when you think about hourly employees the first answer is how do we do that and what we found is in many many cases companies already had policies in place they just weren't necessarily communicating or acting on them and so we're continuing to push forward and put that forward what got interesting about that program though is chip our CEO weighed in on the issue we got another 400 companies to care about making sure that their employees got out but then we started to bridge into our consumer communications as well and so marketing did produce a television spot that they ran here in the US it's run in other countries as well in fact it was running in South Africa last week and then kind of what happened was every corner of the organization said how can we help and so we had voter registration in our stores we had opportunities for employees we changed our volunteer policy around volunteer hours we give employees five hours a month to volunteer in any organization they like we broaden the spectrum so that they could do that on behalf of political efforts and voter registration as well and so it just was became this dot connecting of we had a t-shirt that was that one became a very big influencer campaign for us and so we just looked at it wasn't that we said what are all the things that we can ask each other to do it was that within the organization as the or as the idea that felt so natural and so real to who we are everyone started to galvanize around saying hey I can help and I can help and I can help and in the culmination it was an incredibly proud moment of what we were able to do and I think we realized we're just getting started and I'm gonna work really hard to both bring other companies into that mix and also partner with all the folks who are interested in this issue and trying to continue to lean hard into it yeah that's fantastic you gave me a great quote that you said chip offers you which is let's always make sure we take the harder right over the easier wrong what's he mean by that you know I think that there are lots of times where there are choices where you can opt out or you can make a decision that that's not our issue or there are times when there's just an easier to sit like there's a easier lower threshold to the decision but it's not the right decision it's not the right decision long term it's not the right decision for our history and what we do for our constituencies that we care about and so that has been a mantra from the very beginning it's how he runs the business it's how we make decisions about some of the things that you have been talking about around environmental commitments and it's very much the decision of how we make decisions around advocacy and so you know I mentioned sort of in passing Gun Violence Prevention there that's a really harder right over the easier wrong so there is every argument to say this is a hot-button issue it's not your issue and there are a lot of gun owners who love their Levi's and is that really the answer that you want to do and what we did was we really we heard from our employees you know here in San Francisco chip will often say that he has you mentioned you mentioned your daughter was 11 he has a 12 year old daughter and here in San Francisco kids knew more drills on an active shooter situation than on earthquakes and that's sort of stunning to us as an organization and it's an issue that so many people care about and as we watch sort of one of the things that we realize as a sweet spot for us in terms of advocacy is really putting the wind beneath the wings of youth movements and when youth really speak up how can we lend our voice to help give that the galvanizing factor that it makes sense and so I'm gonna on set was one where we started to see more and more voices and you could almost see the corporate entities shifting away from the table and so that felt one where we needed to lean in and say how can we help and it's we've learned a lot and there's a long way to go yeah that's tremendous thank you so much by the way if you're interested asking a question you can go to the app for this session and try to get to them at the end those will be curated as best we can given our time so John the big issue is climate change the big hard one gun control by the way is extremely difficult I don't know but we're talking about climate change in climate advocacy why do you share with us I know you have some slides share with us what are the big trends what should REI and Levi's and folks in the room be thinking about in terms of American expectations for companies sure so we've been conducting these nationally representative surveys of the American population twice a year for about 10 years now so so what you see in this slide here this is from our most recent survey in December of 18 we asked this question and all of our surveys we basically want to know do you want to see more action more efforts from various sectors of society to address global warming we asked about global warming in the surveys because that's what Americans tend to the term that they tend to use more frequently than climate change and what we see consistently across all across the years is that corporations in industry always comes out on top with the greatest proportion of Americans wanting to see more action from that sector of society and that this spans across partisan lines right you'll notice that a majority of Republicans especially moderate Republicans want to see more action from corporations in industry and when we look at consumer advocacy ad activism we also see that greater proportions of Americans are likely to engage in some form of consumer activism compared to political activism so here we ask people whether or not they've rewarded certain companies for taking steps to address global warming over the past year as well as whether they've punished certain companies that are opposing steps to address global warming over the past year including we also asked about whether or not they've contacted elected officials to urge them to take action on global warming and what you see is that more or less a pretty consistent pattern over the years that companies are more likely to face pressure from the American population more so than politicians are when it comes to taking action on climate change and so some of you might be wondering ok well so when what what might be the reaction if I take a position on this issue and make some sort of public commitment like Alex and Kelly have been talking about and so we asked in our most recent survey to what extent people would be more or less likely to purchase goods and services from companies that make commitments to 100% clean renewable energy and we see as you can tell a majority of Americans say they'd be more likely to purchase goods and services from companies that make such commitments but I think what's really notable here in this slide that when you look at the proportion of people who would be say they'd be less likely to purchase from those companies very few Americans say they'd be less likely to UM even among conservative Republicans you see that only 9 percent of them say they'd actually be less likely to purchase goods and services from companies that commit to 100% clean energy and then obviously one additional way that companies can get involved in this aside from just greening their business operations is by encouraging citizens to vote right or encouraging them to actually get involved and contact their elected officials and urge them to take action on global warming so this is from a couple of years ago but we asked this question you know we wanted to get a sense of what are the barriers keeping more Americans from engaging in contacting their elected officials and as you can see the top reason on here is simply they haven't been asked before nobody's ever asked me to do this right and so here's a key opportunity where companies can really reach out and make that request and then several of these other things it wouldn't make a difference I don't know who to contact I wouldn't know what to say again these are sort of the rules that organizations can play to organize people and get them involved in this process another interesting one the third one there I'm not an activist right so I think companies in the private sector generally can really help address some of these long-standing stereotypical perceptions of what it means to be an environmental activist or a climate activists and really change people's perception that you know you don't have to have long hair and be a hippie and wear sandals to be a climate change activists right that this can come from a variety of different backgrounds so I'll go ahead and leave it there John is it possible we've been saying earlier that silence is not neutrality is that your sense is it possible for the today's consumer to think of silence as being complicit perhaps if you're not speaking out is that a liability potentially potentially so we haven't asked you know specifically you know even the question about you know whether you've punished certain companies it's about whether or not you've punished companies who are actively opposing action to address global warming so we don't know for certain about neutrality but I think one key question is you know people are probably more likely to face criticism for not making ambitious enough commitments or ambitious enough activities as opposed to you know doing too little yeah so what I'm hearing you say is that this is a moment that it is extremely safe and wise for companies and CEOs to stand up speak out put it out there early and often actively on climate change as aggressively as possible did I get that right is that that's what I heard is that what you heard yeah so I mean one of the trend one of the key trends that we see in our data is that especially as of our December survey we're seeing record high levels of Americans saying that climate change is happening it's human-caused they're concerned about it half of Americans now say that people in the United States are being harmed right now so less and less are we seeing this as an issue that's distant in the future that it's a problem for plants penguins and polar bears or small island nations in the Pacific but that this is something happening here in my community right now that I'm concerned about and that certainly you know has put some wind in the sails and you mind if I just comment on that for a second I just think the debate on this has to go beyond whether companies can say anything about you know doing things that help the environment this like debate has been had the question is what to say and what to do when you have the global oil majors out publicly advocating for a tax on carbon what more air cover are you looking for [Laughter] so we're I do think you could be incredibly helpful and you know this is where the question of what to do becomes the language choices going back to 16 31 the mechanisms by which we introduce the conversation so that indeed it isn't and I think it's phenomenally depressing some of the numbers that were on your previous slide that it wouldn't make a difference like the branding of what it means to take actions such that this is in fact a civic duty not an act of you know rebellious defiance in the face of civic responsibility it in fact is the most powerful expression of civic responsibility which is why I have so much respect for the work that Kelly Levi's in a consortium that supported that have done that's a much more risky proposition that work you did than saying hey listen let's take action to address global warming so I I'm in the zone of like don't do it the question is how yeah you're here thank you I feel like you two have sort of softened the ground in many ways I think I'm sensing resilience because you've weighed in and you kind of alluded to this that you've made this space for others to weigh in and because you've weighed in before it's gonna be easier for you to weigh in again and the next time and the next time is that true is that your sense that well I would say that there's an expectation so there's an expectation with your stakeholders starting first and foremost at home with your employees and then expanding from there I think one bridge that's relevant to this group that's related to this is you know we went public just a couple of months ago and one of the big questions that we heard inside our doors is will we change as a result of this will we compromise on our values will we do more easier heart like prongs and you know our CEO and CFO I think they did 600 meetings during the roadshow and this question came up in almost every conversation and what they said was no we are we're very public about who we are our consumers know what to expect from us our employees know what to expect from us and our supply chain knows what to expect from us and we're going to be consistent on those fronts that doesn't mean that everyone will choose to invest with us that's okay there's more than enough and you know the performance of the company has proven that that wasn't a compromise at all and I think more than anything whether than I would call it resilience I would think that it actually enhanced the loyalty to the company both from as you think of each of those groups yeah absolutely I can't believe how fast this is gone and we're gonna do rapid-fire now from each of you from where you sit what are the primary recommendations you would give to this group you have many companies in the room who might be thinking about stepping out wanting to do it right I know you've both talked about authenticity your recommendations at this point so I think you know the data that I showed is pretty clear that whether it's making a commitment to 100% clean energy or something else Americans are very broadly supportive across party lines of clean energy generally and even when you look at certain climate policies whether it's increasing investments into renewable energy or or even carbon tax there's broader support than normally we might assume when you actually look at the public opinion data and so simply even just telling that story correcting people's miss miss or underestimation of where support actually is and can really help build that momentum and I think companies stepping out and making those kinds of commitments only helps to reinforce and correct some of those underestimations of support so I'd offer three things I'd say for the investors in the room ask the companies that you're following where are they in these issues and build an expectation that they're going to have great answers and that they're going to be proud of their answers on their issues all that does is help to put influence inside our organization so I would say that for the corporates in the room make sure that you're making you're supporting your employees in voting and if you want to learn more about that we're very eager to expand that group so happy to talk about that but then secondly as you asked yourself I don't think that there's one playbook that makes sense around these types of corporate advocacy issues I think first and foremost and I said this before but you start with what are the values the principles that drive your company and where does it make sense for you to play what's authentic to you I think that we didn't talk much about some of the examples that you flashed up but I do think that part of the criticism was if there are one notes and they're one notes that come out of marketing that's a hard story to say that it feels really authentic to who you are and then last I would say get your inspiration from the people who are closest to you and for us that usually is our employees right thank you Alex I don't know what to share I think that the I think the hard question if you've got an organization that isn't willing to move is how do you get in the head of the leader and you got to find that person in a place of vulnerability not in a threatening manner but a spend time trying to understand that individual because in all of these examples that you can look at leadership really matters and the moment you help somebody who's leading a large enterprise and their concern for the future of employment for everybody who's in it the moment you can give them the protection that in fact doing this work isn't in fact about whether someone is going to buy from you or not I think in my experience that's when the window of opportunity emerges and it nearly always comes from a place of heart not head in my experience that may not be true for for everybody in this room so I think you have to also just take a really deep relationship like that the relationship lens on this and explore the person who may be that you know who may be the biggest possible catalyst yeah well we look forward to your leadership going forward we look forward to hear new findings thanks so much to all of you for joining us please join me in thanking our panel

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