Niall Ferguson: Donald Trump Not A Fascist But A Populist | Morning Joe | MSNBC

Niall Ferguson: Donald Trump Not A Fascist But A Populist | Morning Joe | MSNBC



26 past the hour joining us now senior fellow at the Hoover Institution Neil Ferguson his book Kissinger 1923 to 1968 the idealist is now out in paperback good to have you back on the show thanks so much for being with us you're breaking this election down between complicate earth and simplify errs explain to our audience right there's a great phrase that the Swiss historian Jakob book are coined over 100 years ago terrible simplify errs and he predicted that the 20th century would be turned upside down by terrible simplifies and prompts a terrible simplify event a century earlier the 21st century looks like it's gonna have some too although I think Trump is more of a populist than a fascist I'm not right with my old friend Andrew Sullivan that the Republic is in danger and Turin is ramming but I think it's terrible complication that encourages terrible simplification and the insight for me was when I downloaded all the policy papers from hillary clinton's website and read them all and there just seems to be how's everything here well store being was it a disturbing weekend yeah it kind of spoiled my weekend because until that point i'd been fine with obviously trump is dreadful and i'm just gonna have to take a deep breath and you know support Hillary Clinton and then I read all these policy papers and I thought gee does this is this it is this the next four maybe eight years like weights right now so merit because it's increased expenditure on infrastructure which I don't wholly believe will work and combined with increased taxation but above all increased regulation and I sat down I thought I now know what the choice is the choice is between snafu essentially more of the same situation normal or left up or fubar which is really the top option where we effort up beyond all recognition yeah a lot of the fubar because they just can't stand any more senior that's how I felt at the end of it because I thought well what a terrible choice we show so tell me will we survive a lot of people come up and ask us if Trump's President of the United States is it gonna be what Andrew Sullivan says is is he a COO neo-fascist a crypto-fascist are we going to have brown shirts marching around Washington DC or will we survive for years well I I read or reread Philip Roth's book the plot against America and that was a kind of good reality check Roth imagines what would have happen if Charles Lindbergh had formed a fascist government in 1940 this isn't fascism and I had a long discussion with and about this we were old mates I said look I think a he's not a fascist he's a populist that has deep roots in American history you know back in the late 19th century there were candidates who were against immigration they were against free trade the attacked what they saw as corrupt elites this was standard fair in late nineteenth century politics and eventually it blew itself out because ultimately these aren't great solutions to America's problems about restricting immigration high tariffs none of that work before it won't work again if it's tried and you ended up eventually with progressives coming along and so it's not a fascist general Hayden was on our show last week said that Donald Trump is a face of authoritarian populist and would you agree with it I do agree with that and that's why he's so appealing to the authoritarian populist who were already in power around the world I mean it's fascinating to go not only to Russia where he's obviously hope somebody they would love to see in the White House but you go to China and you say oh you must be so worried about this guy Trump with his threat of a trade war and they all laughter they say no no no we really like him it's Clinton we don't like with all this human rights stuff we can get you know we can do business with Trump so the authoritarian regimes are looking forward to a trump presidency they're hoping it will come and I said to some liberal friends this summer look you're real you're real worry is not a trump presidency it's a successful trump presidency because there is this scenario in which at least for the first year or so this could look to be going quite well especially if he focuses on foreign policy because the Russians will hand him a deal on Syria in within the first 100 days then the Chinese will kind of play shadow boxing about foreign policy of giving nukes to Saudi Arabia or South Korea or so on wildly reckless stuff but will it actually happen I mean this is the problem that makes it hard to predict what a trump presidency would be like a lot of the things that he said in foreign policy being wildly reckless but would he actually do them my sense is that he'd be the chairman of the administration he would delegate an awful lot to the people that he brought into his cabinet now it could all go horribly wrong Andrew could be right and I could find myself in a gulag sometime later next year because I you know I was an R I was a never Trump signatory and this could cut you know I could end up being around with cattle trucks but I think you've got to consider this scenario this is post brexit remember I went through the brexit experience when right up until that the very night the results came out we were confident that yourself I'm in trauma and it turned out that actually ninety percent of Britons aged 65 and over turned out and most of them voted to leave and I think you could see something similar in the US where the turnout is just really skewed and this makes the polls wrong and we wake up and it's November the 19th and suddenly he's president and then you have to imagine what would that actually be like and I think ultimately Andrews vision of a kind of Nazi America doesn't convince and it doesn't convince Trump supporters every time you say to a trump supporter he said so they go come on no because it doesn't seem plausible so let's say he does not win he does not become president is the country still ripe and ready for another simplifier or is this just about donald trump a guy who was so famous and so well known that he could kill elevate that message and that frustration is it about him or is it about what's happening so a lot of I think that demagogues like that don't come along every day and I think he's a common skill demagogy watch him interact with an audience he's good at what he does so the trumpets will be there they'll be mad they'll be sore the real issue will be how far will they constrain Paul Ryan doing the kind of deals that he probably would be willing to do with Hillary Clinton I think they could strain them quite a bit what were those two terms that you gave us it's a choice between snafu and fubar if you write the biography of Kissinger you come up with lots of World War 2 acronyms these are both World War 2 acronyms the infantry came up with situation normal all F top and the airman came up with EFT off beyond all recognition and that is the Chancellor Erica faces thank you we have learned something all right so there now we have used that for what we learned we're already there all right all right here's the clamp biography on Henry Kissinger is out now in paperback very good to have you on the show thank you so much Republican vice presidential nominee Mike Pence joins us live from the campaign trail in battleground Pennsylvania we'll be right back hey there arm Chris Hayes from MSNBC thanks for watching MSNBC on YouTube if you want to keep up to date with the videos we're putting out you can click subscribe just below me or click over on this list to see lots of other great videos

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28 thoughts on “Niall Ferguson: Donald Trump Not A Fascist But A Populist | Morning Joe | MSNBC

  1. It's official.  Books and evidence are piling up every day.  Check out Timothy Snyder's "The Road to Unfreedom".  In truth the far right has existed in the US for a very long time.  They have never accepted that the civil war is over and their ideology and policy is sick and inhuman.  Their ideas are deeply rooted and growing stronger.  Fascists in the US have been strengthening connections with Putin’s Russian oligarchy for some time now.  They want to destroy our free and open system along with the middle class to create a corporate welfare state of massive inequality and zero social mobility.  The US is drifting farther to the right every day.  If you value your freedom, the start learning your history for real (that means reading books by historians not watching propaganda) so you can learn the truth and vote for politicians that are not liars, traitors and thieves.  Without the historical knowledge you will fail to understand politics.

  2. Sooo, two years in. Economy is booming, government regulations have been cut massively, taxes have been lowered, immigration laws are being enforced and no secret police or jailed journalists (unlike the unfortunate fellow Hillary blamed for Benghazi). Meanwhile, leftists everywhere committing violence, opposing free speech, pushing for hate speech laws, committing fake hate crimes because they can't find any actual right wing hate, pushing fake narratives of racism and gender inequality to divide the country. Looks like all the commenters predicting the Trumpocalypse really nailed it….

  3. Ferguson is wrong on most accounts. Trump is defeated in Syria. He compromised on China trade. He cannot delegate at all, but fire one guy after another.

  4. Trump is populist and demagog i agree, but so is pretty much every other politician, especially lefties. That is how democracy works. Can you imagine average Joe listening some complicated debate? Can you imagine below average Joe?

    Maybe that is why most successful countries in the world are honk kong and Singapore, they don't really have democracy.:)

  5. Does he actually believe that shutting down illegal immigration and better vetting of some third world Muslims from failed terrorist states is "shutting down immigration"? I wonder if he is that intellectually lazy, or just trying to manipulate people with his hyperbole?
    Way to discredit everything you just said buddy.

  6. Populism. Authoritarian Populism?

    I can understand populism, which is the appeal to the concerns of ordinary citizens when running a campaign. However, "authoritarian populism" is a term I cannot distinguish from fascism.

  7. Wow! If Niall Ferguson , the neo nazi, thinks Trump is supported by Russia and China, Trump doesn't have a chance because the likes of Ferguson & co, right-wing crazies, who suppose to follow him everywhere are skeptical !!!! who, rational person, will vote for him?

  8. I do not agree with Ferguson, this is creeping fascism from a creep, and a "self proclaimed" sexual predator. Trump is a dangerous candidate and should be shunned by all Americans. He does not represent what America is to people all over the world…The Land of Hope and Freedom…Maybe The Great Communicator and one of America's greatest president said it best, "The Shining City on the Hill"…

  9. The fascist title would follow Trump's election to public office. Trump's behaviors are so similar to Hitler's in Germany prior to the nazi takeover.

  10. Won't we have such great news on the single channel we have left: Trump News Network.  All others have been banned.  Top New stories.  Trump saves us again.  Trump balance all budgets.  Trump ships all fat broads out of country.  Trump completely seals Southern border.  Clinton slowly eats her bread and water for her dastardly email scandal.  Bill Clinton and Trump have wild night with unfat chicks.

  11. Just wait until Dumb Donald starts his Trump youth corps.  Hydrogen peroxide and artificial tanning is required.  The youth cause as many people to be bankrupted while they mistreat as many females as possible.

  12. Trump IS worse than a fascist ..He has combined right wing populism with Putinism and Banana republic dictator vengeance….he is a collage of all the worst kinds of Political Kitsch that right wing radio shows & Fox News have screamed & ranted their ersatz ….yes fake empathy for "the people"…

  13. Trump has consistently shown that he behaves worse than pundits have been able to predict. Fergusons nonchalant appraisal of a potential Trump presidency is very surprising particularly coming from an historian so fond of the counter factual.

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